Seagrave Apparatus 1970 - 1989

[Buckeye 53]

Mehlville, MO
1973 Seagrave
1250/300/100'
SR-24768
# B.73164
Dennis J. Maag Photo
John Denney Collection

[Buckeye 53]

Berkeley, MO  Reserve Engine
1980 Seagrave
1500/500
J.73887
Dennis J Maag Photo
John Denney Collection

[Buckeye 53]

Cleveland, OH  L-1
1984 Seagrave
100'
R.76179
John Denney Photo 8/1988

[squad546]

Prince George's County, Md
Bowie FD
Truck 39-1989 Seagrave Rear Admiral 110'

x-Truck 10,21 & 39-1986 Seagrave 100'
John Floyd photos

[squad546]

Prince George's County, MD
Beltsville FD
Truck 31-1977 Seagrave 100'
2nd photo a jumpseat has replaced a compartment
John Floyd photo

[squad546]

Prince George's County, MD
Boulevard Heights FD
Truck 17-1971 Seagrave 100'
Pre & post cab refurb
John Floyd photos

[squad546]

Prince George's County, MD
Chillum-Adelphi VFD
Engine 44-1970 Seagrave
John Floyd photo

[Engine33Truck]

Okay, question time.  I know what the K-,P-,J-, and H-cabs look like, but whats the difference between the sub classes, like JB, JP, etc? 

Also, what's the difference between the late 1980s HB and the late 1980s JB?  And what's a W-cab I've heard of?

[GA_Dave]

  The model designations include the K, P, S, W, H, M, J, L, and T cabs, as well as the new Flame.  With the exception of the
T-cab and the Flame, the configuration of all Seagrave cab-forward cabs is based on the classic five-man design.  This layout consists of the engine being mounted behind the front seat and between the jumpseats.  The T-cab and the Flame have the engine located forward, between the driver and officer, with seating for the crew behind the engine.
  Seagrave entered the cab-forward chassis market in 1959 with the introduction of the K-cab.  The K-cab was 99.5" tall and 76" wide at the back of the cab door, tapering to 72" wide at the front of the cab door.  It was the only Seagrave cab built that does not have flat sides.  The K-cab was available as an open cab or a canopy cab.  A distinguishing feature of canopy cab K-cabs, built prior to 1969, is a seam that parallels the top of the windshield.  No other Seagrave cab had that seam.  The K-cab was phased out in 1969 in favor of the new P-cab.
   During 1969, Seagrave replaced the K-cab with the P-cab.  The P-cab had the same basic layout as the K-cab, but the cab was a full 80" wide with no tapering.  The front fenders, therefore, are not as wide as those used on the K-cab.  Overall height was reduced to 96.5", resulting in the cab face of the P-cab being more square in shape.  The P-cab was available in open cab, canopy cab, and 4-door cab versions.  Although other cabs were introduced by Seagrave in the late 1970's, the P-cab was still in production as late as 1982. 
   In 1969, the Fire Department in Philadelphia, PA took delivery of the first Calavar Firebird 125 platform.  It was built on an FWD chassis with a specially modified Seagrave P-cab.  This cab would enter production in 1971 as the Seagrave S-cab.  It was basically a standard P-cab that had ten inches of height removed from the body.  The cab floor had been lowered on either side of the engine, resulting in a cab with nearly the same interior dimensions, but one that sat much lower on the frame.  The S-cab was available in canopy cab and 4-door cab versions and normally was the cab chosen for rearmounted aerials, but there were at least a few S-cab pumpers built.  The S-cab was discontinued in 1982 with the P-cab.
   The next generation of Seagrave cab-forward cabs arrived in 1977.  The new cab was full width with no front fenders.  There was a small rectangular grille on each side of the cab, just behind the door.  A new feature was the addition of small access panels in the cab face, held in place with black rubber mouldings.  Easily removed and replaced, these panels allowed access to electrical wiring under the dashboard from a standing position outside the cab.  This feature is continued on the Seagrave cabs of today. 
   The new standard height cab was called the H-cab and it's low profile brother was the W-cab.  Like the S-cab before it, the W-cab was intended for use on aerial apparatus, but it was also quite popular as a pumper.  The W-cab was introduced first, followed by the H-cab in early 1978.  The grille on the side of the W-cab was cut out around the wheelwell and was not a full rectangle as used on the H-cab.  The W-cab was replaced by the L-cab in 1990.
   The H-cab and W-cab were designed with firefighter comfort and safety in mind, much more than the previous cabs were.  The wider cabs allowed for more interior space and windowsthat were much larger, providing better visibility.  Open cabs were no longer being built and 4-door cabs became more common.  A characteristic of only these two cabs was a notched window frame in the cab door, where the wing window was located.  Rectangular headlampswere standard on the H-cab and W-cab.  The H-cab was replaced by the J-cab around 1988.   
   The Seagrave M-cab was built in 1978 for an order of pumpers for the U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps.  Twenty-one of these went to each branch during 1978-79.  The M-cab was aplain, squared off design with no frills.  It was only built as a canopy cab model.  The concept of a no frills custom pumper was soon introduced to the general public when the Invader entered the market in 1983.  Over a period of about two years, forty Invaders were built.  The largest fleet of Invaders, fifteen, went to Philadelphia, PA in 1984. 
   The next cab design from Seagrave was the J-cab, which made its debut in 1988.  When compared to earlier cabs, the J-cab has a very flat face.  The J-cab was only available as a canopy cab or a 4-door cab until 1991, when NFPA regulations required all apparatus to have fully enclosed passenger compartments.  Other features of the J-cab included full length cab doors and a tall narrow grille on the side of the cab. 
   Although the full length cab doors of the J-cab were preferred by many fire departments, there were several who found them to cause a problem.  When a response was made to an expressway that had concrete barriers, which are common in California and Maryland, firefighters could not open the doors on the officers side as it would hit the barrier.  A solution came in the form of an option that would put shortened doors on the J-cab.  These became known as "barrier doors".  Another option for the J-cab came in 1993 when a grille and air tunnel were incorporated into the cab to provide proper cooling for the larger diesel engines being offered.
   The designers at Seagrave were tasked to replace the aging W-cab.  Engine cooling requirements for the larger engines, often needed for aerial apparatus, made the optional grille and air tunnel a must.  Rigs with this option lost the seating for one of the crew.  Seagrave needed to come up with a cab that could combine a large engine, proper air flow to cool it, and plenty of room for the crew in an enclosed cab.
   This low-profile version of the J-cab arrived in 1990.  Known as the L-cab, it differs from the earlier S-cab and W-cab because the crew area is still at normal J-cab height.  A notch is cut down the center of the crew area for the aerial device to fit through.  This cab lowers the travel height of a Seagrave aerial by nine inches.  The barrier doors are not an option on the L-cab.
   One of the principal design shortcomings of the classic five-man cab is the lack of access to maintain the engine.  The engine cover and sides need to be removed, but access is still not easy.  Having a 4-door cab makes it worse.  The cabs have removeable roof panels for taking out the engine, but lesser repairs can be very difficult.   The industry-wide move had been towards the tilt-cab design.  This style of cab places the engine at the front of the cab, between the driver and officer.  By placing the engine up front, improved cooling is achieved, as well as allowing for more room for the crew in
the back of the cab. 
   Seagrave's entrance into the tilt-cab market came in 1991 with the introduction of the T-cab.  Early Seagrave tilt-cabs were of the split-tilt design.  The front half of the cab tilted with the crew area remaining stationary.  Options for a raised roof and extended length cabs became popular with this design.  The T-cab retained the same look as the J-cab, including the square grille in the front, but an additional grill was placed below it.  The side grilles were relocated to just behind the front wheelwell. 
   There is also a full-tilt version of the T-cab.  With this design, the entire cab tilts for engine access.  There are no seams on the cab sides.  Early T-cabs had verticle grille bars but Seagrave uses horizontal bars today. 
   To remain competetive in today's apparatus industry, Seagrave has introduced a new, less expensive, custom chassis.  The Seagrave Flame is a "package" pumper, similar in concept to the Pierce Contender or the E-One Typhoon.  It is available with a limited selection of options.  The full-tilt cab is boxy and plain, with large windshields that curve upwards at the outer top corners.  The grille is a large square and the headlights/warning lights are mounted flush with the cab face.  On production models, the windows in the front doors dip down at the front edge.  Barrier style cab doors are standard. 
   The second letter in a Seagrave model designation depicts the type of apparatus. 

A-midship aerial
B-pumper (4x2)
C-chassis (4x2) sold to other manufacturer
D-pumper (4x4)
E-pumper-tanker (6x4)
F-chassis (4x4) sold to other manufacturer
G-chassis (6x4) sold to other manufacturer
H-chassis (6x6) sold to other manufacturer
J-pumper-tanker (6x6)
P-rearmount aerial (6x4)
R-rearmount aerial (4x2)
T-tractor drawn aerial
X-tractor only

[Engine33Truck]

Thank you! Seagrave certainly has had a wide array of cab designs, thank you for clearing it up.  Now all the designations make a lot more sense.

[GA_Dave]

You're welcome.  That was the text from the Seagrave Spotter's Guide that I wrote several years ago.  Seagrave has added a few since then and I really need to update that info, but you can still use this for the older ones.

[Engine33Truck]

I'm definately going to have to find those Spotter's Guides

[Box 2565]

Great job on the Spotters Guide.  I had never seen this before and it is filled with helpful information.  I would enjoy seeing the other guides that you have prepared posted on this site.  How about photos to illustrate each type of cab?

[GA_Dave]

As I said before, that was only the text from that guide.  In original form, there were plenty of pics.  The four Spotter's Guides were hosted in several places online, none of which seem to still be there.

I just went to the "Internet Wayback Machine" and put one of the websites that used to host the Guides, (www.scalecentral.org), went back to December 27, 2004 and found the text from the ALF, Seagrave and Pierce Guides can still be found. 

As I have stated, I am revising the Pierce Guide and should have it updated after the holidays.  I need to talk to Greg about posting it here.  If that works out, I'll update the others and add them.

[Box 2565]

Bowie MD   Truck 39
1977 Seagrave
100’ Aerial
#G 75167   Model: SR 20768
John Floyd photo.