wfd apparatus

[yfd4]

ad in tribune advertising for bids to lease and/buy quint for wfd bids due by march 5 2004 1200pm

[YARBFD10]

Firefighters still waiting for truck

By RON SELAK JR. Tribune Chronicle


WARREN - City Council, 358 days ago, unanimously approved legislation authorizing the city to purchase a new multipurpose hazardous material response vehicle.

It wasn't until Tuesday the advertisement seeking bids to build that new fire truck ran in the Tribune Chronicle. And it will take another 240 to 270 days to build the truck.
By the time the truck, better known as a quint, arrives at Fire Station 6 on Parkman Road N.W. it will have been roughly 19 months after there was authorization to advertise for bids on the vehicle. The bid opening is March 5.

The delay has fire Chief Ken Nussle wondering what took so long, when a 1973 ladder truck, which the chief says should be relieved from service because of ladder failure, was kept around. It is the only backup to the department's 1992 aerial.

''The money was never appropriated,'' Nussle said. ''We were told it simply was not there.''

The money to pay for the truck is coming out of infectious waste tipping fees from the former BFI, now Stericycle plant on Pine Avenue S.E. The funds are designated for training and equipment in the Police, Fire and Health departments.

Nussle said between $75,000 and $100,000 a year is generated by tipping fees, and since January 1994, $911,000 has been collected. Warren receives $5 for every ton of infectious waste disposed at Stericycle, which is the maximum amount allowed by state law.

As of last October, there was $460,787, Nussle said. Last week, Auditor David Griffing said there is $423,000 in tipping fees. The more than $400,000 in tipping fees has Nussle questioning why he was told there was no money to purchase the truck.

Former Mayor Henry J. Angelo and former safety-service director Fred Harris did not return a message seeking comment.

Griffing said part of the reason is that the Fire Department didn't prepare the specifications right away. Another reason is that the prior administration had questions they needed answered regarding the tipping fees and the money being used for a hazardous material vehicle.

''I don't know that they were against it; it's just they had some questions,'' Griffing said. ''They wanted to make sure they had the proper documentation from the Fire Department.''

Nussle said the specifications were complete and sitting in his office, and he was waiting for word that the money was secure.

''I had the specifications all along,'' Nussle said. ''I didn't want to go beating on their door anymore. They told me they were looking to free up some money to get the truck.''

After Mayor Michael J. O'Brien took office in January, buying the truck was made a priority.

After a few weeks of fine tuning, the bid specifications with the Law Department to ensure they were not too specific, the advertisement was announced.

''It was one of my priorities as soon as I took office,'' O'Brien said. ''I was made aware the money was there; that's why I asked the fire chief to get those specs to buy that truck.''

Nussle said there was discussion about purchasing the vehicle through a lease/purchase agreement over seven years where the city would pay roughly $75,000 a year.

However, the money still needs appropriated.

The vehicle, or quint, will cost about $500,000 fully equipped and will be ready on arrival to respond on calls.

Nussle said ''quint'' means the vehicle will have five things - a fire pump, hose body, water tank, ground ladders and aerial ladder. It will be 75-foot long and can be used in place of the department's ladder truck.

''It can go on just about every possible call you can imagine,'' Nussle said.

Nussle said the department's hazardous materials/rescue command vehicle bought in 1997 was also purchased through tipping fees. The payment on that truck is between $40,000 and $44,000 a year with three years left to pay, Nussle said.


rselak@tribune-chronicle.com

[YARBFD10]

So if the quint is going to 6, why not move the rescue to 6 and make 6 a hazmat response station?  Staff it with 4 to 5 guys and just have squad and ladder from 1, and keep 5 the way it is.

 :idea:

[SixbyFire]

I think it's great that Warren has decided to expand it's firefighting capabilites by buying a pumper with a 75' ladder on it that some might call a quint. It probably won't be staffed to do both engine and truck work at the same time, but it's always good to have an extra ladder or elevated stream around when you need one.

If the platform is OOS, they can move the "quint" to replace it and run Engine 6 with a regular pumper. The city of Lakewood did exactly the same thing. They operated with 3 stations, one with an engine and ladder, one with a quint, and the other with a single engine. When the ladder was OOS, the quint took it's place, which in turn was replaced with a reserve engine. I don't think the height of the unit matters much, most people should be able to self evacuate high rises in case of a fire. Then again, all buildings should have sprinklers to begin with. Most cities don't have a ladder truck capable of reaching the tallest building in their city. Good truck work often does not require use of the aerial.

A 118' Bronto quint might be nice, but it weighs twice as much, carries 200 less gallons of water, and half of the hose of a 75' sidestacker by E-One. If they eventually decide replace the platform it might be a good idea to get something taller though.

One more thing, it's too bad that Warren and the other fire departments in the area can't share assets. I'm not just talking about automatic or mutual aid either. Out here there are engines and ladder trucks that are used as reserve rigs by multiple departments. Often the reserve unit has less capabilities, there are a few 75' reserve quints used to replace 100'-105' ladder trucks but those are rarely used to their maximum extension, let alone the fact that a fire could occur that no ladder truck could reach, even the 174' Bronto. Many of these shared units are owned by multiple departments, while other departments loan their rigs to others. In order to save money, many of these departments are actually combining together to form larger departments. Even so, the whole county is dispatched as a single entity, with the closest units going to calls, regardless of the city limits. It's not really even considered automatic aid, each call is just another assignment.

[SixbyFire]

I think that the argument that most cities don't have a ladder truck capable of reaching their tallest building is perfectly valid. After all FDNY no longer operates any sort of high ladder units. Why don't they have a 174' Bronto on the roster, even as a special call rig? Even so, you can never build a ladder truck to reach the tallest buildings. That's why you need sprinklers and/or a well trained department that is capable of fighting a high rise fire from the inside of the structure. I think self evacuation is the only way to go in most cases. You can't rely on the fire department to always rescue you. Sadly most people are like sheep and probably don't know where the stairwells are in high rise buildings, let alone the fact that they shouldn't use the elevators during a high rise fire.

I know things haven't changed that much since I moved out of northeastern Ohio. When I was shooting video for the Cleveland Fires series of videos, I went to hundreds of structure fires. I probably have 300 or more on video, and I probably went to another 300 or more that were knocked down already or were just room and contents fires that I didn't shoot video at. I'd say that the aerial's were used at perhaps 1 in 20 to 1 in 25 fires. Mainly they were used for elevated stream operations or to provide an additional point of egress for interior firefighters. I have never been to a fire where an aerial ladder was used to rescue someone, while I have seen a few people taken down on ground ladders. Good truck work does not depend on the length of your ladder truck. More then one city still operates quads and city service style ladder trucks as the primary apparatus for some of their truck or rescue companies.

In moving out to California I've noticed a great difference in the truck work then I was used too seeing in Ohio. Even in the suburbs out here, the truck companies have a dedicated crew, not just one or two guys who happen to be driving the ladder that day. The truck work the suburbs do out here compares to what I'm used to seeing in the city of Cleveland. The truckies out here blow out of the water any truck work I've seen in any suburban Cleveland fire. I won't even go into the truck work that goes on in San Francisco proper.

I do agree that a taller ladder is better, and when it comes time to replace the platform maybe they'll spec something taller. If they're just replacing Engine 6, they could get a regular pumper after all, however, they chose to buy something that could serve as a reserve ladder truck if needed. I'm familiar with Warren, my parents still live in Lordstown, and I can't see Engine 6 responding to all their calls in a 118' Bronto "quint" type rig. I think it's all in the training of the truckies and I stand by my claim that most truck work does not require use of the aerial ladder itself.

However, if Warren really, really needs a 100' ladder, and they have $5,750 dollars lying around, and they can "Buy it Now" before anybody else does, they can get their 100' ladder truck:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2461972994&category=6729

Even better, the truck is already in Ohio! Seriously though, I've seen many 100' ladder trucks, some with 4 door cabs, that were currently certified selling for under $40k.

[daysleeper47]

Call the Warren Fire Department! Steve is burning bridges! hahaha

 :wink:

[daysleeper47]

YFD4, that's totally understandable. BTW, I wouldn't have posted the above if I thought you would take offense to that comment. I'm glad you can appreciate my sense of humor.

[yfd4]

daysleeper47
you are greatly appreciated on this end for all the wonderful knowledge and brilliance you contribute to this hobby
all the best in your future endeavors esteemed colleague

[yfdgricker]

From the Tribune Chronicle Web Site 3/8/2004...

Bid opened on Warren fire truck

By RON SELAK JR. Tribune Chronicle

WARREN - A new city fire truck, known as a quint, could arrive as soon as July but as late as December.
The arrival date depends on whether city officials have All American Fire Equipment Inc. in Washington, Ohio, build a new truck or purchase a demo.

Mayor Michael J. O'Brien said that decision still has to be made.

''It is imperative we have equipment that is reliable, both for the task that it performs and for the men using that equipment,'' O'Brien said.

The city Friday opened the only bid, from All American. The truck would cost $539,771, while the demo has a price tag of $528,721, according to the bid sheets.

It also is still unclear if the vehicle will be purchased outright, or through a 10-year lease/purchase agreement. In the latter, the demo truck would cost $64,577 a year and the other would cost $65,927, according to All American's bid.

O'Brien said the bid came in below estimates.

The money to pay for the truck is coming from infectious waste tipping fees paid by the former BFI, now Stericycle plant on Pine Avenue S.E. The funds are designated for training and equipment in the Police, Fire and Health departments.

O'Brien said no taxpayer money is being used to purchase the truck.

Nussle has said that between $75,000 and $100,000 a year is generated by tipping fees and, since January 1994, $911,000 has been collected. Warren receives $5 for every ton of infectious waste disposed at Stericycle, which is the maximum amount allowed by state law.

The city now has roughly $423,000 in tipping fees.

O'Brien said the new truck will replace two trucks. One is a 1973 ladder truck, which the chief says should be relieved from service because of ladder failure but was kept because it is the only backup to the department's 1992 aerial.

The new truck will be stationed at Fire Station 6 on Parkman Road N.W.

''It's important to note that it will be on the west side, not at the Central Fire Station,'' O'Brien said.

Nussle said ''quint'' means the vehicle will have five features - a fire pump, hose body, water tank, ground ladders and aerial ladder. It will be 75 feet long.

On Feb. 26, 2003, City Council approved legislation authorizing the city to purchase a new multipurpose hazardous material response vehicle. It wasn't until almost a year later that the advertisement seeking bids to build that new fire truck ran in the Tribune Chronicle.

The delay had Nussle wondering why it took so long. Nussle says he was told the money was never available to buy the new vehicle.

Auditor David Griffing said part of the reason is that the Fire Department didn't prepare specifications quickly, and there were concerns from the prior administration regarding tipping fees and the money being used for a hazardous material vehicle.

Nussle said the specifications were complete and sitting in his office, and he was waiting for word that the money was secure.

After O'Brien took office in January, buying the truck was made a priority.

''Trying to rely on 30-year-old equipment with the type of dangerous job these guys do is absolutely irresponsible,'' O'Brien said.

[yfd4]

http://www.steelvalleywebdesign.com/wfd/
by greg ricker pics :lol:

[Box 2565]

A late 1940's vintage IH/American lettered for "Warren Emergency Truck No. 1".  Now the question is was this apparatus at Warren, Ohio or Michigan or...?

[jk]

A late 1940's vintage IH/American lettered for "Warren Emergency Truck No. 1".  Now the question is was this apparatus at Warren, Ohio or Michigan or...?

This was in Warren Ohio.  I have a photo of it from 1971, I'll add it later to the forum....

[wfd44]

This is NOT a real pic....the actual vehicle was a 1949 International K-series/American Marsh Pumps 500gpm/600gwt and was used from 1949-oct 1962 for minor alarms within the city and out-of-city responses lacking hydrants. Starting Oct 1962 then Chief Gerorge W Mock ordered this unit to respond on on all calls owing to the large booster tank in view of the fact that from central fire station it could access the entire city quickly and possibly trounce the fire in its early stages by means of dual booster lines [not a single booster as is erroneously pictured] so that  a single ff drove this unit on full responses namely present chief Ken Nussle's father. During a serious fire at a house next to the Nursing School at TMH in the 60s which housed docs ff Nussle responded solo  in this vehicle along with pumpers no1 2 4 5 and ladder 2 and alone pulled a portable ladder and put it up to a second story window and assisted a trapped doc occupant down to safety. In 1974 this vehicle was decomissioned and sold. It served from downtown 1949-1971. Parkman Rd station 6 1971-1973. After that it more or less stopped being used and was sold.
ps
the buckeye roto-rays on the real truck had only 3 lights NOT 4 as erroneously pictured

[boardmansteve]

This is NOT a real pic....the actual vehicle was a 1949 International K-series/American Marsh Pumps 500gpm/600gwt and was used from 1949-oct 1962 for minor alarms within the city and out-of-city responses lacking hydrants. Starting Oct 1962 then Chief Gerorge W Mock ordered this unit to respond on on all calls owing to the large booster tank in view of the fact that from central fire station it could access the entire city quickly and possibly trounce the fire in its early stages by means of dual booster lines [not a single booster as is erroneously pictured] so that  a single ff drove this unit on full responses namely present chief Ken Nussle's father. During a serious fire at a house next to the Nursing School at TMH in the 60s which housed docs ff Nussle responded solo  in this vehicle along with pumpers no1 2 4 5 and ladder 2 and alone pulled a portable ladder and put it up to a second story window and assisted a trapped doc occupant down to safety. In 1974 this vehicle was decomissioned and sold. It served from downtown 1949-1971. Parkman Rd station 6 1971-1973. After that it more or less stopped being used and was sold.
ps
the buckeye roto-rays on the real truck had only 3 lights NOT 4 as erroneously pictured

1.  This is a "real pic" (although colored)
2.  There are two booster reels on this truck
3.  The Roto-Ray has only three lamps, as do all Roto-Rays

[Buckeye 53]

This is NOT a real pic....the actual vehicle was a 1949 International K-series/American Marsh Pumps 500gpm/600gwt and was used from 1949-oct 1962 for minor alarms within the city and out-of-city responses lacking hydrants. Starting Oct 1962 then Chief Gerorge W Mock ordered this unit to respond on on all calls owing to the large booster tank in view of the fact that from central fire station it could access the entire city quickly and possibly trounce the fire in its early stages by means of dual booster lines [not a single booster as is erroneously pictured] so that  a single ff drove this unit on full responses namely present chief Ken Nussle's father. During a serious fire at a house next to the Nursing School at TMH in the 60s which housed docs ff Nussle responded solo  in this vehicle along with pumpers no1 2 4 5 and ladder 2 and alone pulled a portable ladder and put it up to a second story window and assisted a trapped doc occupant down to safety. In 1974 this vehicle was decomissioned and sold. It served from downtown 1949-1971. Parkman Rd station 6 1971-1973. After that it more or less stopped being used and was sold.
ps
the buckeye roto-rays on the real truck had only 3 lights NOT 4 as erroneously pictured

1.  This is a "real pic" (although colored)
2.  There are two booster reels on this truck
3.  The Roto-Ray has only three lamps, as do all Roto-Rays

Not to stick my nose in where it does not belong, but....

1. It looks like an artist's rendering vs a picture - aka photograph to me
2. I can see only one booster reel on this rig
3. I see 4 red lenses on the Roto-Ray